Seems like a pretty classic case of differentiation for the sake of the larger argument to me aka capitalist endless productivity= good, neurodivergence that doesn't submit to the increase of capital =bad. That being said, as an ADHDer who has struggled with the difficult sides of monotropism, I've found mindfulness practices to be really valuable and it's hard to explain why it feels different from positive psychology sometimes. In my experience there's a tangible difference between being told that I should focus and invited to pay attention. When I try to explain the latter to other people or even to myself, it sometimes sounds like positive psychology because observing how I feel can change the way I feel with a result that looks a lot like "just think positive and make the best of your material circumstances". Not sure what to make of that in this context or how to talk about it in a way that doesn't sound preach-y and "manifestation"-y * shrugs *
This is a very good example of what “mindfulness” is, different than forcing or targeting a goal. Allowing, inviting, waiting, witnessing, observing, meandering: all create the conditions for change without necessarily dictated what that change is supposed to look like. Following, not “leading”, yet produces all of the supposed effects that people thinking leading and controlling provide. “You cant ride out of the forest on the same horse you rode in on”
I think mindfulness is a great concept to bring into this conversation. For me, I’ve always thought of being in flow is a “mindful” state in which I can move easily in and out of focus on different interests, tasks and relationships in any given day. For me it’s almost the opposite of hyperfocus, which often feels paralyzing for me. I identify hyperfocus as a mental space where I am ignoring my soma and basic needs in the pursuit of something singular. But when I am more “mindful” and “embodied” but equally interested I find flow. That’s my 2 cents.
to those curious to look deeper into the mindfulness aspect & the original origins of the western "flow", look into the ancient Chinese concept of Wu Wei! ("Effortless Action," or "Doing Not-Doing")
hyperfocus feels to me more anxious, more like a grip, a compulsion. Flow can actually be relaxing and full of easeful clarity. I usually feel energised after I've been in flow and exhausted after hyperfocus.
Yeah I agree that there are 2 distinct feelings here in my experience too. Rising to a challenge that's at *just* the right level feels a lot better than compulsively reading about something that stresses you out for hours/days while neglecting your basic needs. It's definitely possible to transition between the two though—what starts out as a nice flow state can become unpleasant and compulsive when you start being tired and can't tear yourself away, or when the difficulty level or content of the work becomes unpleasant. Idk if that means flow and hyperfocus are two different things or just that focus can have different emotional valences and different levels of voluntariness.
I am also interested in this. I have found myself enjoying an activity and then at some point struggling to take away my attention while at the same time not having the pleasant experience I had. I would do everything to find/become mindful of some indicator that tells me when to stop before it is too late.
Love your articles on these areas, especially when you debunk and or look at these modern mythologies through a lens of systemic oppression.
I come at things from a nondual animist view, and i think for many people, animism IS neurodivergence. A wholly different relational ontology than dualistic materialism which underpins so much of modern “mental health” definitions.
As to your ending questions, i would wonder about how relaxed and engaged a person is in their “flow” or “hyperfocus”… how close to mania or manic states are these experiences for a person. Is there a crash afterwards? Are they using flow or hyperfocus to avoid something that they deem as painful or fear inducing? What, if any, are the addictive qualities of the states in question or the subject of the state, any “macro or micro-addiction loops” present?
I think these questions and more are very interesting when it comes to defining “happiness”.
Anyway, love your articles! Blessings to all your relations
Such interesting comments and questions! I do feel I can seek comfort in hyperfocus as a tool to avoid difficult feelings, and it does take me close to hypomanic states.
I feel a pretty big difference between focus and hyperfixation, added to a capitalist vision of the thing I totally agree with. For me, focus feels like doing exactly what I was planning to do and turning off the too many things I have in mind during a very peaceful and grouding moment. It feels like a deep dive ending with the strange feeling of "coming back to reality" softly. On the opposite, hyperfocus feels like an obsession bleeding through my head I have to deal with until it comes dries, having it continuously for some days and creating a fog keeping me far from the others, keeping me of doing what I wanted to do. It's chaos. A rich chaos full of ideas, but still chaos, and still exhaustig.
Si, to be honnest, the whole mecanism feels différent to me !
I hear people talk about hyperfocus in a mostly positive way, as a therapist. However, as someone who has processing disorders (or "ADHD", but I don't like the term), my experience is more so one of perseveration. It does not feel good at all. I feel like I can't stop and move onto something else. No, this is not mania. It has a more obsessive-compulsive, panic-ridden feel. Sometimes, the end product might be good if it's something that I'm working on, but the process of getting there feels terrible. (On the contrary, most other times, I can't stay on anything for more than one second.)
I appreciate that there are many people who see both pros and cons to having ADHD, and I support the neurodiversity movement and the idea that we all vary in how we operate. I respect anyone's way of conceptualizing themself, plus am aware that part of the issue is that the world is set on in particular ways that cater more toward neurotypical individuals. My distaste for the term "attention deficit. hyperactivity disorder" does not really capture what it is (especially as it's really just a catch-all anyway), and the shortened "ADHD" sounds like a trademarked brand. For me personally, it has only caused problems, so I do prefer to think of it as an executive functioning disorder. Of course, it's impossible to separate out from everything else, which aspects are "problematic" because of secondary factors and then the feedback loop between them. Also, again for me personally, I cannot imagine any other type of society in which my ADHD would be a benefit to me -- for instance, I do not relate to those who pick up on everything in their environment and might have been done well in hunter-gatherer societies.
I love that you're looking at Flow, it's a book I read in its entirety several years ago but honestly don't remember much about, except for the fact that I really enjoyed it and even recommended it to a few people. I think I was mostly attracted to it because it gave voice to this experience of 'flow' which I was chasing extremely hard at the time but didn't have the vocabulary to recognize. I also had a very different relationship with my own thoughts and behaviors and with society than I do now and I suspect if I were re-read at this point in time, I would not receive it as warmly.
Today I still give the concept of flow merit, separate from the surrounding arguments Csikszentmihályi makes about productivity and self control and etc, because I do personally experience it as a separate experience from hyperfocus, but one which is still impossible to channel in any direction I want. I do not control the hyperfocus, I also do not control the flow, BUT they are quite distinct for me, maybe even nearing opposite experiences. I see hyperfocus as all thought going very intensely in one specific and narrow direction, with flow being no thoughts just vibes.
the western "Flow" concept is essentially a misinterpreted, bastardized & industrialized version of the ancient Chinese concept of Wu Wei ("Effortless Action," or "Doing Not-Doing"). I highly recommend ppl look into it~ there are many different perspectives on it but I find it makes a lot more sense that western "Flow," which I've always seen as problematic & not fully understanding of human psychology.
Flow was one of those books that I got from one of several educators throughout the years who probably knew I was autistic even if I didn’t (I am nearly 40 and only recently found out). I didn’t notice the capitalistic shit at the time just the relief that my ability to get super into things didn’t have to be a bad thing. But it didn’t get through the sleepless nights, the catastrophizing, the things that have made it difficult to function when asked to perform.
It’s probably one of those multi-sided things, depending on various ways of processing. Great review!
For me, hyper-focus and flow tend to go together when I'm writing, which is the only place I experience hyper-focus; when I'm engaged in other artistic things--drawing, knitting--I will be in more of a flow state, but I'm reachable but also detached from a sense of time. When I'm writing, time disappears. 8 hours could pass, and I would think it was an hour. My husband will tell me he stood next to me repeatedly, trying to get my attention, and I have no memory of him being there. I don't ruminate or obsess about things, though I did when I was younger, but only if I was hyper-stressed or overtired. I have organized my life to avoid those states for the most part. Though as I'm writing this, I wonder if I'm hyper-focused more than I think. I would miss every meeting if I didn't set an alarm. I also am not annoyed if I'm interrupted doing something (when the person can actually get my attention). It's easy for me to start and stop (I've read that ADHD ppl can get very rattled when interrupted in a hyper-focused state)
I agree that flow has always sounded positive (but ridiculously naive to me) and hyperfocus sort of negative. But I think flow is an imaginary ideal. I don’t know anyone who really has felt it. Too many people (including neurotypicals) characterize their experiences as being a struggle to label it flow. What I experience with hyperfocus is enjoyable but difficulty stopping so it becomes less enjoyable because I start to feel push/pull to stop/continue in that state. Flow seems idealized in that once you realize you were in flow you just stop for dinner (or whatever).
A distinction between flow and hyper focus, in my experience, can be hyper focus gives little hits of dopamine in bursts of concentration on tactile external things while flow can offer a longer term, continuously self-generating, existential experience. Perhaps the sweet spot is finding a way to access both simultaneously: the closest I come is when I make art.
Tis’ a shame capitalism seeks to exploit such creative energy - if not suppress it.
Seems like a pretty classic case of differentiation for the sake of the larger argument to me aka capitalist endless productivity= good, neurodivergence that doesn't submit to the increase of capital =bad. That being said, as an ADHDer who has struggled with the difficult sides of monotropism, I've found mindfulness practices to be really valuable and it's hard to explain why it feels different from positive psychology sometimes. In my experience there's a tangible difference between being told that I should focus and invited to pay attention. When I try to explain the latter to other people or even to myself, it sometimes sounds like positive psychology because observing how I feel can change the way I feel with a result that looks a lot like "just think positive and make the best of your material circumstances". Not sure what to make of that in this context or how to talk about it in a way that doesn't sound preach-y and "manifestation"-y * shrugs *
This is a very good example of what “mindfulness” is, different than forcing or targeting a goal. Allowing, inviting, waiting, witnessing, observing, meandering: all create the conditions for change without necessarily dictated what that change is supposed to look like. Following, not “leading”, yet produces all of the supposed effects that people thinking leading and controlling provide. “You cant ride out of the forest on the same horse you rode in on”
I think mindfulness is a great concept to bring into this conversation. For me, I’ve always thought of being in flow is a “mindful” state in which I can move easily in and out of focus on different interests, tasks and relationships in any given day. For me it’s almost the opposite of hyperfocus, which often feels paralyzing for me. I identify hyperfocus as a mental space where I am ignoring my soma and basic needs in the pursuit of something singular. But when I am more “mindful” and “embodied” but equally interested I find flow. That’s my 2 cents.
to those curious to look deeper into the mindfulness aspect & the original origins of the western "flow", look into the ancient Chinese concept of Wu Wei! ("Effortless Action," or "Doing Not-Doing")
hyperfocus feels to me more anxious, more like a grip, a compulsion. Flow can actually be relaxing and full of easeful clarity. I usually feel energised after I've been in flow and exhausted after hyperfocus.
Yeah I agree that there are 2 distinct feelings here in my experience too. Rising to a challenge that's at *just* the right level feels a lot better than compulsively reading about something that stresses you out for hours/days while neglecting your basic needs. It's definitely possible to transition between the two though—what starts out as a nice flow state can become unpleasant and compulsive when you start being tired and can't tear yourself away, or when the difficulty level or content of the work becomes unpleasant. Idk if that means flow and hyperfocus are two different things or just that focus can have different emotional valences and different levels of voluntariness.
I am also interested in this. I have found myself enjoying an activity and then at some point struggling to take away my attention while at the same time not having the pleasant experience I had. I would do everything to find/become mindful of some indicator that tells me when to stop before it is too late.
Love your articles on these areas, especially when you debunk and or look at these modern mythologies through a lens of systemic oppression.
I come at things from a nondual animist view, and i think for many people, animism IS neurodivergence. A wholly different relational ontology than dualistic materialism which underpins so much of modern “mental health” definitions.
As to your ending questions, i would wonder about how relaxed and engaged a person is in their “flow” or “hyperfocus”… how close to mania or manic states are these experiences for a person. Is there a crash afterwards? Are they using flow or hyperfocus to avoid something that they deem as painful or fear inducing? What, if any, are the addictive qualities of the states in question or the subject of the state, any “macro or micro-addiction loops” present?
I think these questions and more are very interesting when it comes to defining “happiness”.
Anyway, love your articles! Blessings to all your relations
Such interesting comments and questions! I do feel I can seek comfort in hyperfocus as a tool to avoid difficult feelings, and it does take me close to hypomanic states.
I feel a pretty big difference between focus and hyperfixation, added to a capitalist vision of the thing I totally agree with. For me, focus feels like doing exactly what I was planning to do and turning off the too many things I have in mind during a very peaceful and grouding moment. It feels like a deep dive ending with the strange feeling of "coming back to reality" softly. On the opposite, hyperfocus feels like an obsession bleeding through my head I have to deal with until it comes dries, having it continuously for some days and creating a fog keeping me far from the others, keeping me of doing what I wanted to do. It's chaos. A rich chaos full of ideas, but still chaos, and still exhaustig.
Si, to be honnest, the whole mecanism feels différent to me !
I hear people talk about hyperfocus in a mostly positive way, as a therapist. However, as someone who has processing disorders (or "ADHD", but I don't like the term), my experience is more so one of perseveration. It does not feel good at all. I feel like I can't stop and move onto something else. No, this is not mania. It has a more obsessive-compulsive, panic-ridden feel. Sometimes, the end product might be good if it's something that I'm working on, but the process of getting there feels terrible. (On the contrary, most other times, I can't stay on anything for more than one second.)
a good alternative for the pathological term "ADHD" is the term birthed from neurodiversity, KCS ("kinetic cognitive style", or simply "kinetic")
I appreciate that there are many people who see both pros and cons to having ADHD, and I support the neurodiversity movement and the idea that we all vary in how we operate. I respect anyone's way of conceptualizing themself, plus am aware that part of the issue is that the world is set on in particular ways that cater more toward neurotypical individuals. My distaste for the term "attention deficit. hyperactivity disorder" does not really capture what it is (especially as it's really just a catch-all anyway), and the shortened "ADHD" sounds like a trademarked brand. For me personally, it has only caused problems, so I do prefer to think of it as an executive functioning disorder. Of course, it's impossible to separate out from everything else, which aspects are "problematic" because of secondary factors and then the feedback loop between them. Also, again for me personally, I cannot imagine any other type of society in which my ADHD would be a benefit to me -- for instance, I do not relate to those who pick up on everything in their environment and might have been done well in hunter-gatherer societies.
I love that you're looking at Flow, it's a book I read in its entirety several years ago but honestly don't remember much about, except for the fact that I really enjoyed it and even recommended it to a few people. I think I was mostly attracted to it because it gave voice to this experience of 'flow' which I was chasing extremely hard at the time but didn't have the vocabulary to recognize. I also had a very different relationship with my own thoughts and behaviors and with society than I do now and I suspect if I were re-read at this point in time, I would not receive it as warmly.
Today I still give the concept of flow merit, separate from the surrounding arguments Csikszentmihályi makes about productivity and self control and etc, because I do personally experience it as a separate experience from hyperfocus, but one which is still impossible to channel in any direction I want. I do not control the hyperfocus, I also do not control the flow, BUT they are quite distinct for me, maybe even nearing opposite experiences. I see hyperfocus as all thought going very intensely in one specific and narrow direction, with flow being no thoughts just vibes.
Wow, I never realized there was a dark side to the concept of flow. Thank you for elucidating that.
the western "Flow" concept is essentially a misinterpreted, bastardized & industrialized version of the ancient Chinese concept of Wu Wei ("Effortless Action," or "Doing Not-Doing"). I highly recommend ppl look into it~ there are many different perspectives on it but I find it makes a lot more sense that western "Flow," which I've always seen as problematic & not fully understanding of human psychology.
Flow was one of those books that I got from one of several educators throughout the years who probably knew I was autistic even if I didn’t (I am nearly 40 and only recently found out). I didn’t notice the capitalistic shit at the time just the relief that my ability to get super into things didn’t have to be a bad thing. But it didn’t get through the sleepless nights, the catastrophizing, the things that have made it difficult to function when asked to perform.
It’s probably one of those multi-sided things, depending on various ways of processing. Great review!
For me, hyper-focus and flow tend to go together when I'm writing, which is the only place I experience hyper-focus; when I'm engaged in other artistic things--drawing, knitting--I will be in more of a flow state, but I'm reachable but also detached from a sense of time. When I'm writing, time disappears. 8 hours could pass, and I would think it was an hour. My husband will tell me he stood next to me repeatedly, trying to get my attention, and I have no memory of him being there. I don't ruminate or obsess about things, though I did when I was younger, but only if I was hyper-stressed or overtired. I have organized my life to avoid those states for the most part. Though as I'm writing this, I wonder if I'm hyper-focused more than I think. I would miss every meeting if I didn't set an alarm. I also am not annoyed if I'm interrupted doing something (when the person can actually get my attention). It's easy for me to start and stop (I've read that ADHD ppl can get very rattled when interrupted in a hyper-focused state)
Joe definitely does sound Autistic to me too.
I agree that flow has always sounded positive (but ridiculously naive to me) and hyperfocus sort of negative. But I think flow is an imaginary ideal. I don’t know anyone who really has felt it. Too many people (including neurotypicals) characterize their experiences as being a struggle to label it flow. What I experience with hyperfocus is enjoyable but difficulty stopping so it becomes less enjoyable because I start to feel push/pull to stop/continue in that state. Flow seems idealized in that once you realize you were in flow you just stop for dinner (or whatever).
strugling with the gospel of optimism most of my grownup life
and the sensibility of an imersive experience sometimes the world around really tells something
thanks for the reaserch and time spent in writing this
(sorry for any misspelling)
A distinction between flow and hyper focus, in my experience, can be hyper focus gives little hits of dopamine in bursts of concentration on tactile external things while flow can offer a longer term, continuously self-generating, existential experience. Perhaps the sweet spot is finding a way to access both simultaneously: the closest I come is when I make art.
Tis’ a shame capitalism seeks to exploit such creative energy - if not suppress it.